Subject: Fwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:49:47 -0400 (EDT)

I tried to send this only to Brian, but he has set his system to
not accept messages to him.  So I have to send this to the whole
List.  Sorry.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "Alan McConnell" <[email-masked]>
To: "Brian" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 3:38:06 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

This only to you, Brian.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 2:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 15:17:00 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> 
> > Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one point:
> > "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
> > maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the
> 
> What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
>        <LOL>  Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know it.

Deconstruction of this statement follows:
        Brian, you are in a bad temper.  Did you read the amended title of this
        and previous messages? "Problem solved".
 
        Suggestion: simply don't reply to any of my (perhaps) forthcoming questions
        and/or comments.  That will save both you and me time and spare us both
        annoyance.

Best wishes,

Alan McConnell

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 21:44:56 -0500

>         and/or comments.  That will save both you and me time and spare us both

This is a summary of what I've gleaned from your posts:

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00296.html
 How do I boot the new jessie installation?

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00337.html
 I don't need [rescue mode].
 I played with the BIOS.
 I am busy installing stuff.
 How do I do it? [sic]

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00364.html
 Do I want to install a different grub?
 I'd like a response from one of them(if they exist here) letting me
 know how [a dual boot system] works.

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html
 What works for me now is the following: [and your solution]
 I shudder to think of someone taking my advice [etc]
 Jeez!!  I hope some maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works
 hard to make sure that the operation of installing a second OS(Linux)
 on a Windoze box is as easy and error-proof as it is possible to make it.

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00408.html
 Why?  why all this?  What good will it do? to anyone?  To do this I'd
 have to get out of this URL(mail.his.com), shut down my Windoze,
 reboot to Jessie, copy the output you are requesting to a piece of
 paper, and then get back here.(*)
 May I ask: are you the Debian installation maintainer?  if you are,
 I'd be happy to work with you.

Now, I'm happy that you have what you consider is a working solution.
I don't know what you see when you press F12, and I don't understand
what the "L or M" business is in times past.

I can't find any description of what your actual problem is, with
some symptoms, other than that the computer doesn't do what you want
it to do, in some way that's unspecified.

I don't think that the maintainers of grub or the Debian installer
will be interested in this, beyond asking you to read the Debian
installation guide and the grub documentation (a long web page).
You need to report more specifically where what you read diverges
from what happens with your computer, including objective descriptions
of the problem rather than vague complaints.

People here will try to help you, but they can't divine what's
happening on your machine in the absence of facts. If there's really
a bug, then you may get help on how to either fix it, or report it
in such a way that the busy maintainers can isolate and act upon it.

Re your last post quoted above, what's the problem with running jessie
and reporting the information you were asked for? I assume that you
installed jessie so that you could run it occasionally.
I know some people on this list treat it like the telephone ("I'm
going to bed now, and will try it in the morning" kind of thing) but
the list will wait for the next occasion that you boot up your jessie.
In fact, it often pays *not* to give quick responses because it gives
you time to think on the problem, and you *are* the best-placed
person to come up with a solution (as you have done, in a way).

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 23:14:26 -0400

David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
...
>> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:16:00 -0500

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives
> to continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more
> than 12 hours after OP added string "solved" to the subject and
> thanked people who provided useful help?

What does "12 hours" have to do with the price of fish?

Ironic to say that about a post that itself contains:
 "Re your last post quoted above, what's the problem with running jessie
  and reporting the information you were asked for? I assume that you
  installed jessie so that you could run it occasionally.
  I know some people on this list treat it like the telephone ("I'm
  going to bed now, and will try it in the morning" kind of thing) but
  the list will wait for the next occasion that you boot up your jessie.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  In fact, it often pays *not* to give quick responses because it gives
  you time to think on the problem, and you *are* the best-placed
  person to come up with a solution (as you have done, in a way)."

The reasons I posted:

AMcC drew attention to the title of his post: "How to get Jessie to
run at boot time -- Problem solved" where it's not clear that the
problem being solved is what's in the title, nor that the "solution"
is anything more that a workaround that does something for him.

His annoyance at being asked to provide more information so that
people trying to help can have a decent crack of the whip.

His implication that people should only ask those questions if
they move in the company of experts in Debian or grub.

So that summary I wrote was to explain why I was still mystified as to
the nature of his problem and its "solution", and how the "L or M"
business might help with matters. Knowing what is on the screen when
he presses F12 might help; there again, it might not. On this Dell,
F12 gives you a chance to boot from HardDrive/CD/USB without having
to enter the CMOS and change the default priorities. It has no
choice of which sector is read on the device selected. Perhaps
Dells have changed. Maybe BIOS/UEFI has something to do without it.

So I wrote:

"I don't know what you see when you press F12, and I don't understand
what the "L or M" business is in times past."
which invites a reply without being a direct question (something AMcC
seems to take exception to, unless coming from "experts"; not me then).

I notice that AMcC has now written that his procedure is cumbersome
(though I still don't know what it is). In the next sentence, he
continues to blame the installer, and hopes it gets fixed.

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 14:14:53 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Miata" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?
          <LOL>  Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

          I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything impolite?  I'm not
          conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

          As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to either my Windoze
          or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist in thinking 
          that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope
          that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect another OS during
          the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good notice/question up on a
          beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow keys) to indicate
          which OS they wish to boot.

          To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or uncooperative or both clearly
          have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I write.  I hope they
          will take advantage of this option.

Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy files to and from my
Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, which is the partition
containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there some subtle   mount
command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even suggestions.

Best wishes to all,

Alan McConnell

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:58:29 -0500

>           <LOL>  Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

Glad you found it funny.
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even suggestions.

I put lines in /etc/fstab that look like:

UUID=8CA476AAA4769684 /media/olaf01 ntfs        ro,utf8
UUID=349A79B99A797866 /media/olaf02 ntfs        ro,utf8

where those UUIDs come from dire /dev/disk/by-uuid/* or
/run/udev/data/b* but bear in mind that I only transfer file in one
direction. I don't mess with NTFS disks: if I want to move files,
I transfer them via a VFAT stick in the USB socket.
That way, if and when they get screwed up, the blame lies
firmly with M$.

(The mount points follow my convention of the disk's nickname
plus two digits for the partition numbers.)

For anyone following this thread, do they recognise those UUIDs?
The reason I ask is that I have two XP systems both with those
numbers, but I have no idea if the university installs new PC
OSes by cloning disks, or whether the UUIDs carry information
like 30E002E0454647 now does. (Until today, google didn't find
them; tomorrow it might.)

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:38:56 +0100

On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.

Lisi.

PS I have been trying to help mudongliang, unsuccessfully.  But thereby hangs 
another thread.  Please someone else, his question has still not been 
answered.  Are all attempts to answer it being spam-checked out of 
existence??

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 08:57:19 -0400 (EDT)

Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
various insinuations that have been made.  

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisi Reisz" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:38:56 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.
      You have got to be kidding!  I have stolen(the meaning of "hijacking")
      nothing.  Nothing prevents you or anyone else from ignoring what I write or
      have written and concentrating on the other messages in this thread.

      You talk about etiquette.  I have, over the past twenty years, set up
      at least three E-lists; one about Linux(lwob), one about music(vlaviworld)
      and the third about politics(waifllc, using Meetup).  I never prescribed
      any form of behavior for my members, and I'm surprised that you take it on
      yourself to do so for debian-users.

      Besides: since I added "Problem solved" to the Subject line, I am now posting
      under a different thread.  However, you or anyone else are free to use it for
      further lessons in etiquette, or anything else you choose.<g>

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.
       He was doing no such thing.  He asked a bunch of questions like "What was the
       version of Windoze I was using?" ! ? ! He offered no solution at all that improved
       on what I use.  I'll get to Brian more in a moment.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.
       I _have_ helped myself!  And I am fortunate that I have been able to draw the
       attention of a real expert, Felix Miata, who combines his expertize with an
       ability to read, and a reluctance to preach.  Would that you and Brian would
       emulate him.

On to Brian!  You, Brian, ask: was anyone impolite?  I was accused of being impolite and
I reject the accusation.  I will, however, remark that your series of "deconstructions"
verge on the smarmy.  Do you claim that they were useful, or even relevant?

And what am I, or anyone, to think of your assertions about "Debian Central" or "Abarrane"?
Is it your claim that such comments are useful, or relevant, or even polite?

Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian installation SW
will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a proper and
simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to dual-bootable
systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the machine self-test.

Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or smarm.
Please help me to keep it!

Best wishes, even to Lisi and Brian!

Alan

---

From: Gene Heskett <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 13:24:07 -0400

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> against various insinuations that have been made.
>
Now I am going to push back Alan.

If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that, 
the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent

(wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46 
(Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than 
to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading > 
and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has 
existed since the late 80's of the last century.

> ----- Original Message -----
Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my 
email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it 
marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written 
by an idiot.

Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:58:01 +0100

> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludged
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludge#English  (See meaning 3)

Lisi

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:50:44 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisi Reisz" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:58:01 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client
       Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for years
       to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it when
       when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize for
       Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.
       Sorry, I do know what 'solved' means, and I do say that _my_ problem is
       solved.  But my solution, as I've said over and over again, is not one that
       I can give to people who are running a dual boot system at my urging.

> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
       Absolutely!  I couldn't agree more.  When I get Jessie running properly on
       my new Dell I'll have my emacs put in quotes as they should be.  But I don't
       know how to do it on Zimbra, which, I'll repeat, is a foul piece of SW.  For
       now I'm indenting my replies.  I hope all your mail readers respect my
       indentations; I have a suspicion that some of them don't.

       Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time there.  But
       there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which subject has,
       most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.  This is beginning
       to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting women and departments
       supporting women.

       More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe someone
       can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that there
       is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 10 to
       behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

Best wishes,

Alan

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 08:29:12 +0100

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 01:50:44 Alan McConnell wrote:

>        Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time
> there.  But there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which
> subject has, most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.
>  This is beginning to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting
> women and departments supporting women.

But:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Scott
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_Fawcett

Quality, not quantity.

Lisi

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 08:21:22 +0100

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 01:50:44 Alan McConnell wrote:
> More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe
> someone can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and
> determine that there is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it
> have to know about Windows 10 to behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

It can.  But MS put a lot of effort into making it difficult to dual boot with 
Windows 10, and the installer you are using was, as you have been told, 
written before Windows 10 was released.  The first installer to be written 
AFTER Windows 10 can apparently handle it well. I haven't tried.

Lisi

---

From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 02:44:14 -0400

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):

> Lisi Reisz composed:

>> Gene Heskett wrote:

...
...
> Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.

Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a reply 
according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows better from 
conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not conform, does 
not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.

...
> But maybe someone

As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie, then 
came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for those 
who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.

It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.

Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and 
not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows 
10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all my 
computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming that 
troubled you might be avoided in such manner.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 11:34:31 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Miata" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:44:14 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

> not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.
       I just put in the '>'s in the four lines above by hand.  I hope you are not
       going to ask me to continue to do so!  Especially since I've already explained
       that Zimbra(which is set up to deal with E-mail) is such a cruddy mess.

...
> behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
         I have just checked and when I sent this it was indented eight spaces or so.
         As is this present paragraph.  Do you(plural) see that it is indented?  or does
         your(plural) mail reader simply delete the spaces?  I ask, because I don't like
         to be chewed out when I'm doing my (present) level best to conform with 
         expectations.  Of course, it could be that Zimbra deletes the preliminary spaces
         before sending the mail out.  I could tell you tales about how Gmail mucks with
         what one has written before it sends the mail.

It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.
         Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run os-prober.
         I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; trust me
         that it was unenlightening garbage.

> installation started via a Stretch installer. 
         Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
         line.

(*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of the
things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

Best wishes,

Alan

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 19:51:50 +0100

> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 

This following quotes beginning with > are from Alan McConnell.

>          that it was unenlightening garbage.

What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; nobody can
dispute it (except in the abstract) but it unlikely to be in that
category. But you did get an output; you have no idea how interesting
that is.

We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.

>          Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on

You claimed to be unable to install libreoffice when installing GNOME:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00247.html

    I decided to bite the bullet/go with the flow, and
    install GNOME, the whole thing.  Which I did, and
    it took just short of an hour.  For some reason,
    Libreoffice was not installed.

This is completely impossible using 'apt-get install gnome', of course.
Not unless the Debian packaging system has a gaping hole in it. But it
happened to you (and nobody else). A mishapprension on your part?

Now it is X; X works fine for everyone; a mishapprension on your part? At
another time it was cups; a mishapprension on your part? Where to next?
How many more mishapprensions devoid of usable data are there going to
be?.

> things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

You've asked this five months ago:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00278.html

    Does anyone know how to create an .Xauthority with xauth?
    I find the man page of xauth pretty impenetrable.

You are probably asking the wrong question.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:11:26 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

>          that it was unenlightening garbage.
       Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my indentations.  Others
       don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
         No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a very
         acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what os-prober
         returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the other members
         of this E-list, I'm sure.

         But I'd like to defend what Lisi calls a "kludge".  Here is what I do: when I
         boot, or reboot my machine, if I do nothing I get my Jessie, which is what I
         want.  If I want to go to Windoze, I gotta hold the F12, as Felix Mieta taught
         me several moons ago, and then I get put into a nice menu: Choose the boot
         manager.  I use my Arrow keys to get to Windows boot manager, and voila! in a
         few seconds I'm in Windoze.  Not so difficult after all.  And I would think that
         an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could put those
         few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub file?

We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.
         Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
         versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about that?
         Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get files
         out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

>          Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
       That situation has changed as of just an hour ago.  I did a reinstall of
       xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old wheezy(fortunately
       saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
       old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as metacity.

You've asked this five months ago:
        I did indeed.  That was before my old machine gave up the ghost.  I am 
        impressed, Brian, that you keep such careful track of me.

My final problem is: how to get my Jessie to get on line.  I don't think this is
anything anyone here can help me with, since I live in a retirement community
which has a huge contract with Comcast.  I called a tech person here, and he gave me
a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for the
Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with Jessie.

>  You are probably asking the wrong question.
        <G>

Best wishes to all, even to Lisi!

Alan

---

From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:05:50 -0400

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-14 17:11 (UTC-0400):

> which has a huge contract with Comcast.

Is it a cable account, or is it a DSL account? Appropriate help from here, 
should you choose to accept any, depends on your answer.

> I called a tech person here, and he gave me

Luckily[1], I'm not a Comcast subscriber, so I cannot speak to this from 
experience. Maybe something following can spur you into finding a path to a 
solution.

ISTR that some cablecos provide both a router (aka firewall and possibly a 
switch) and a modem in the same box, like DSL providers typically do. DSL 
providers normally require a login process with username and password. OTOH, 
cable providers typically do not require login, depending instead on the 
unique MAC address of the cable modem. It sounds to me like you either do not 
have an internet router between your PC and the modem, or have a combination 
modem/router/firewall, and so needs Jessie to somehow login similarly to how 
the tech enabled you to connect in Windows. Had you a separate internet 
router that you own, then the router could perform login duty, and internet 
connectivity would not depend on which OS you booted.

[1]
http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/06/comcast-customer-satisfaction-rating-plummets-again/
http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/the-top-5-worst-corporate-citizens-in-the-u-s.html/?a=viewall
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:36:58 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Miata" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 7:05:50 PM
Subject: Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to run...)

Is it a cable account, or is it a DSL account? Appropriate help from here, 
should you choose to accept any, depends on your answer.
        It certainly isn't DSL.  I have an Ethernet cable running from my machine
        to a Comcast provided "modem" -- except that it is called a router.  Quite
        obviously it works well from my Windoze side(I am using MS Edge the M$ new
        browser) to dial into mail.his.com, which uses the afore-mentioned Zimbra

        Any suggestions you can give me would be welcome, especially since I know
        you know your stuff<g>.

        Also: although ALSA and pulse-audio are installed on the Jessie side, I get
        no sound there(I have a couple of videos and some mp3s to test on.  They played
        well back in the Golden Days of Wheezy.  Maybe you have suggestions about
        how to get sound working under Jessie?  Needless to say, I can play Donald
        Trump speeches and Mozart on youtube from this present Edge browser, which
        hasn't crashed once(iceweasel, under Jessie, used to crash continually; it
        worked fine under wheezy)

        And if Brian is reading this, I remind him that he is going to tell me how
        to use Jessie to copy to and from my Windows 10.  But he may have given up
        with his efforts to "help" me.

Alan

---

From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:20:54 -0400

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-15 13:36 (UTC-0400):
 
> Felix Miata composed:

 

> to a Comcast provided "modem" -- except that it is called a router.  Quite

Called a "router" by whom, and where? Maybe help could better be forthcoming
if you announced its brand name and a model number. From the description so
far in this thread, yours seems to be one of those boxes that combine modem,
router, switch and firewall. Does it also provide wireless?

> Any suggestions you can give me would be welcome, especially since I know

I know some stuff. Virturally no Comcast-specific connectivity is included.
OTOH, Tony Baldwin and Jude DaShiell have offered Comcast-specific clues in
this thread.

> no sound there...

Different and new problem belongs in a virgin thread.
 
> with his efforts to "help" me.

This too belongs in a separate thread, but I'll provide a seed for you to try
to fix on your own. This is from Jessie on a multiboot Dell that includes
Windows 10:

# grep ntfs /etc/fstab
/dev/sda6 /win/C ntfs-3g nofail,users,gid=100,fmask=0111,dmask=0000,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
# mount | grep eblk
/dev/sda6 on /win/C type fuseblk (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,user_id=0,group_id=0,default_permissions,allow_other,blksize=4096)
# ls -gG /win/C
total 3313985
-rw-rw-rw- 1     400228 Oct 30  2015 bootmgr
-rw-rw-rw- 1          1 Oct 30  2015 BOOTNXT
lrwxrwxrwx 2         60 Jul 27 06:06 Documents and Settings -> /win/C/Users
-rw-rw-rw- 1 1648193536 Aug  5 03:52 hiberfil.sys
drwxrwxrwx 1      49152 Apr 27 02:35 Logs
-rw-rw-rw- 1 1476395008 Aug  5 03:52 pagefile.sys
drwxrwxrwx 1          0 Oct 30  2015 PerfLogs
drwxrwxrwx 1       4096 Jul 27 06:06 ProgramData
drwxrwxrwx 1       4096 Apr 27 02:34 Program Files
drwxrwxrwx 1       4096 Oct 30  2015 Program Files (x86)
drwxrwxrwx 1          0 Jul 27 06:05 Recovery
drwxrwxrwx 1          0 Aug  4 05:58 $Recycle.Bin
-rw-rw-rw- 1  268435456 Aug  5 03:52 swapfile.sys
drwxrwxrwx 1       4096 Jul 27 04:37 System Volume Information
drwxrwxrwx 1       4096 Jul 27 04:55 Users
drwxrwxrwx 1      24576 Jul 27 03:07 Windows

If the above not enough help to get you where you want to be and you want
more, start a separate thread with an appropriate subject line please.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:02:04 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Miata" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 2:20:54 PM
Subject: Re: internet connectivity from Comcast

Called a "router" by whom, and where? Maybe help could better be forthcoming
if you announced its brand name and a model number. From the description so
far in this thread, yours seems to be one of those boxes that combine modem,
router, switch and firewall. Does it also provide wireless?
        I don't think so:  the little box on my desk is made by 
             Cisco.   Model number:  LinksysWUMC710

Different and new problem belongs in a virgin thread.
       <LOL>  One will be forthcoming tomorrow.

# grep ntfs /etc/fstab
/dev/sda6 /win/C ntfs-3g nofail,users,gid=100,fmask=0111,dmask=0000,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
     Already this doesn't work.  I put my /etc/fstab on a USB stick which has a VFAT file
     system on it, and my Windoze made a most satisfying chime when I stuck the stick
     into one of the sockets on my USB splitter.   I would give you the whole short text
     file if I could swipe my mouse over it.  But this is no go in Windoze, and I don't
     know how to Copy and Paste in the Windoze world.  So I'll just say here that my
     fstab simply enumerates the partitions I made when I installed.  Those are /dev/sda3,
     /dev/sda4, etc.  No mention of /dev/sda1, which is I believe called C: in the Windoze
     world.  I have my fstab, on E:, open as I write, but the wretched Notepad pays no
     attention to the Unix 'CR's !  !  Takes me back decades!<G>.  

     This is another failure of the installer failing to recognize that there is another OS
     on my hard drive.  There is a class of people on this E-list who seem to think that
     the Jessie installer couldn't possibly be expected to recognize a Windoze OS, especially
     since Windows 10 is "so new".  My reaction is: codswallop!

     Thanks for your helpful attempt, Felix.  Were your examples from a box with Windoze already
     on it?

Alan

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:34:56 +0100

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:02:04 -0400 (EDT)

> 
> # grep ntfs /etc/fstab
> /dev/sda6 /win/C ntfs-3g
> nofail,users,gid=100,fmask=0111,dmask=0000,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
> Already this doesn't work.  I put my /etc/fstab on a USB stick which
> has a VFAT file system on it, and my Windoze made a most satisfying
> chime when I stuck the stick into one of the sockets on my USB
> splitter.   I would give you the whole short text file if I could
> swipe my mouse over it.  But this is no go in Windoze, and I don't
> know how to Copy and Paste in the Windoze world.

The same way you do in any medium-heavyweight Linux DE. Right-click,
menu, or drag and drop. For a text file, open in Notepad (if it has
a .txt suffix, just double-click), highlight, crtl-C, paste with
ctrl-V. Where do you think the Linux DEs got their look and feel from?

>  So I'll just say
> here that my fstab simply enumerates the partitions I made when I
> installed.  Those are /dev/sda3, /dev/sda4, etc.  No mention
> of /dev/sda1, which is I believe called C: in the Windoze world.  I
> have my fstab, on E:, open as I write, but the wretched Notepad pays
> no attention to the Unix 'CR's !  !  Takes me back decades!<G>.  

Use Wordpad.

/etc/fstab doesn't know about any partitions you didn't install with,
even if they're Linux. Systemd will generally mount things, either at
boot or on demand as you explicitly tell it with new fstab entries.
Removable media will generally be automounted under /media/<your
login> and don't need fstab entries. It's the job of grub to pick up
other installed OSes, and boot them. Grub doesn't want to know about
their filesystems.

I don't know the incantation for mounting a Windows partition for a
user, I've never bothered with it. If I run Linux on my Win8a laptop, I
get the partitions mounted automatically with root privileges, and if I
really need to write to one, I open mc with sudo. But I do usually use
a FAT USB stick, and either OS automounts it R/W.

-- 
Joe

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 12:30:47 +0100

On Friday 16 September 2016 09:34:56 Joe wrote:
> The same way you do in any medium-heavyweight Linux DE.

No, that is not how I do it in Linux, and having to do it that cumbersome way 
in Windows  and sometimes LibreOffice is a constant minor niggle.

In Linux, I sweep the mouse over what I want to copy to select it, then go to 
where I want to paste it and middle click.  On a two button mouse press both 
buttons simultaneously.

In my DE that even works in the terminal.

Lisi

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:12:28 -0500

> In my DE that even works in the terminal.

Have a care, we don't want Harry Hill shouting "Fiiiiiiight!"

All these methods work in various circumstances because X tries to
allow them all. But the way they interact is complicated by which
buffer is holding the information: X selection, Clipboard, Kill-ring;
on the local machine, on the remote machine, etc.

And where the pasted information goes is also configurable: in emacs I
can select with the mouse like Lisi, but the paste will always go to
the active cursor position (at the flashing blob called "point"), not
to where the middle button is clicked. But that's my choice; and
probably not the default.

This is one area where a bit of experimentation will help much more
than trying to understand the scattered documentation. There's no
Gates/Jobs (showing my age) defining and documenting what can be done,
and I don't think it's possible to write a document that would cover
every conceivable DE, WM, browser, editor, office-style app etc.,
2/3/N-button mouse, not forgeting the entire repertoire of keyboards,
languages and key-redefinitions that are possible. (And don't forget
the plain old linux console.)

The best I've found (for me) is

https://specifications.freedesktop.org/clipboards-spec/clipboards-latest.txt

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Chris Angelico <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 21:09:12 +1000

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Joe <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> But this is no go in Windoze, and I don't

The same place Windows got it from: the Common User Access guidelines.
Ctrl-Ins to copy, Shift-Ins to paste, and the Ctrl-X/C/V as optional
bonuses.

ChrisA

---

From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 22:54:36 -0400

>	Cisco.   Model number:  LinksysWUMC710

So, this has an ethernet cable going between it and your PC, and it has a 
wall wart providing power to it. Are there any other ethernet cables 
connected to it? If so, where does/do it/they go?

If not, where does the cable coming from Comcast come into your house, and 
what's the model number of whatever is connected to it there? In rough terms, 
how far is it from your PC and the LinksysWUMC710? Different room? Close 
enough to connect an ethernet cable between them? If yes to the last 
question, connect one and see if Jessie doesn't magically connect to the 
Internet.

Some of these might sound like irrelevant questions, but they're not. You 
provide such a dearth of information about what you're working with or what 
you understand it's difficult to figure out how to help you, making it 
necessary to elicit useful information creatively.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:33:37 -0500

>              Cisco.   Model number:  LinksysWUMC710

Now that is very revealing. It gives a whole new significance to
the statement "I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper
what it wrote; trust me that it was unenlightening garbage."

Anyway, moving on, here's a quotation from
http://www.linksys.com/no/support-article?articleNum=135444

"The Linksys WUMC710 is a single band Wireless-AC Wi-Fi 5GHz Universal
 Media Connector Bridge with 4-Port Switch capable of connecting
 Ethernet devices to a wireless network."

I think I'll quit here. Carrying on is too painful.

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Curt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 08:59:26 +0000 (UTC)

> I think I'll quit here. Carrying on is too painful.

I'm here praying the machinery has the kind of malfunction that locks
the pod bay doors while the pilot is out on a leisurely space walk.

-- 
“Whatever is rejected from the self, appears in the world as an event.” 
C.G. Jung

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 02:38:35 +0100

On Friday 16 September 2016 02:02:04 Alan McConnell wrote:
> There is a class of people on this E-list who seem to think that
>      the Jessie installer couldn't possibly be expected to recognize a
> Windoze OS, especially since Windows 10 is "so new".  My reaction is:
> codswallop!

We know that.  You seem to be completely unable to say anything politely.

Let's just reword that: Jessie is old.  That is the problem.  If you use 
Stretch, which is new, apparently the problem is less and people are working 
on it.  MS wanted to make it difficult, or preferably impossible, to dual 
boot with Windows 10, which doesn't help. 

The installer will not be rewritten for Jessie, which is old, because Jessie 
is Stable.  I.e. things don't change.  It could not be written for Windows 10 
before Windows 10 existed, since the developers haven't got a crystal ball, 
much as you think that idea is codswallop, and it could not be rewritten for 
Windows 10 after Windows 10 existed because that is the nature of Stable.  It 
doesn't change.

Since you obviously don't like Jessie, and are unwilling to try to adapt to 
it, why on earth are you using it?  There are loads of other things you could 
be using, including, but not only, other versions of Debian, which would 
probably suit you better.

Do you think you could possibly try to be polite, just once?

Incidentally:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spellcheck/english/?q=E-list

And the result of a search on E-list on the Oxford Dictionary site:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/a_&_e

Lisi

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 19:00:27 +0100

>         with his efforts to "help" me.

Brian has decided he has nothing more to contibute beyond suggesting a
USB stick to transfer files between the two OSs.

Putting "help" in double quotes says a lot. But I'll learn to live with
it.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 18:57:52 +0100

On Thursday 15 September 2016 18:36:58 Alan McConnell wrote:
>         to use Jessie to copy to and from my Windows 10.

Brian suggested a USB stick.  You rudely poo-pooed it.

Lisi

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:24:49 -0500

> Brian suggested a USB stick.  You rudely poo-pooed it.

Well, at least that's a reaction. My solution for copying *from*
W10 was completely ignored by all, except google which has added
two (possibly) random hex numbers to its repertoire.

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:47:30 +0100

On Thursday 15 September 2016 19:24:49 David Wright wrote:
> > > And if Brian is reading this, I remind him that he is going to tell me
> > > how to use Jessie to copy to and from my Windows 10.
> >

Being ignored by Alan is less painful than being kicked!!

I didn't really understand your solution, and as I cannot ever envisage myself 
wanting to transfer anything from Win10, anywhere, and am rather stressed and 
rushed at the moment, I rather skimmed over it.  Sorry. :-(  I'll try to come 
back to it and read it properly in the reasonably near future.

Lisi

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:17:46 -0500

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 20:05:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> Is it a cable account, or is it a DSL account? Appropriate help from
> here, should you choose to accept any, depends on your answer.
> 
> Luckily[1], I'm not a Comcast subscriber, so I cannot speak to this
> from experience. Maybe something following can spur you into finding
> a path to a solution.
> 
> ISTR that some cablecos provide both a router (aka firewall and
> possibly a switch) and a modem in the same box, like DSL providers
> typically do. DSL providers normally require a login process with
> username and password. OTOH, cable providers typically do not
> require login, depending instead on the unique MAC address of the
> cable modem.

I always assumed that cable companies relied on the fact that you're
at the other "end" of a piece of wire that comes into their building.
When lightning takes out my modem, I shall just buy another of a
type approved by Cox. They'll discover the MAC when I connect it.
(I hate combined modem/routers.)

Obviously some others take a belt and braces approach, perhaps
because a multiple service is being supplied to a ?building(s) over
which they feel they have less control. We get the typical residential
service of one wire/service/bill. If you want to steal the service,
you need to get climbing.

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Tony Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:39:47 -0400

> you need to get climbing.

I'm using comcast/xfinity cable internet, with no issues and have for 
some years
I have always just been able to boot a debian system while connected to 
their modem and id automagically detects and configures the connection, 
no problem. If you do any torrenting you've got to use an encrypted 
pipe, or comcast will throttle you, but otherwise no problems.

./tony

-- 
http://tonybaldwin.me
all tony, all the time

---

From: Jude DaShiell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:06:59 -0400 (EDT)

I'm on comcast and what we have here is a cable account with a 
combination router modem box.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Felix Miata wrote:

> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:05:50
> From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
> Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 00:06:14 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: [email-masked]
> 

--

---

From: Felix Miata <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:48:47 -0400

> combination router modem box.

Who owns the box?

Does connectivity on the account involve use of a login and password?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

---

From: Jude DaShiell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:57:55 -0400 (EDT)

comcast owns the box and connectivity requires a network name and 
password to be in a computer's wifi settings before you can connect. 
Comcast puts two possible connections on each box.  One of them is for 
the account holder and the other connection is for public use if comcast 
users have an email address and a different password to log into their 
comcast accounts.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016, Felix Miata wrote:

> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:48:47
> Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 10:49:25 +0000 (UTC)

--

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 23:09:12 +0100

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 17:11:26 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

Alan McConnell's responses are indented and begin with >.

> From: "Brian" <[email-masked]>

Brian's resonses are not indented.

>        don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

Perchance.
 
>          of this E-list, I'm sure.

You can insist on what you want. It is easy when only you know what the
the output is.

>          few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub file?

That's fine; it does what you want and will serve you well. Stick with
it. but forget about involving GRUB.
 
>          out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

I rather think there is an answer in the response you quoted.
 
>        old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as metacity.

Good. (Your technique is extraordinary but comments on it are outside
the scope of this thread).

>         impressed, Brian, that you keep such careful track of me.

I have a reasonably good memory. It was GNOME not installing libreoffice
which triggered the connections. So unusual. You never responded to that
either at the time it was pointed out.

> Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with Jessie.

I'm confident you are resourceful and will manage.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:10:05 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 5:09:12 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

You can insist on what you want. It is easy when only you know what the
the output is.
          <G>  I've seen error messages before.

That's fine; it does what you want and will serve you well. Stick with
it. but forget about involving GRUB.
          But a flow chart to do it would be easy:
  Read input
     if input=L then
         do nothing
     else if input=W, then
         change boot method to Windows Boot Manager
     else
         return to read input
     fi
                Something like that could be easily implemented, methinks.  But I'm
                not going to do it.

I rather think there is an answer in the response you quoted.
         I didn't see it.  Remind me.

Good. (Your technique is extraordinary but comments on it are outside
the scope of this thread).
         Thank you!  I would rather start off with a X-less tty1 and then enter X
         with my own choice of what to run, how the background looks, etc.  startx,
         with a good .xinit, does all I want.  Simplicity, dear my lord,
         makes computing yare.   <G>  

I'm confident you are resourceful and will manage.
           <LOL>  I trust that your confidence in me is not misplaced.

Alan

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 00:33:09 +0100

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve 
formatting.

Lisi

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 00:50:25 +0100

> Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve 

I think you can be excused from thinking I wrote that but I didn't.
Nothing for anyone to get bothered about as far as I am concerned.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:01:12 +0100

> Nothing for anyone to get bothered about as far as I am concerned.

I'm sorry.  That was carelessness.  It is a "fault" in my email client that it 
tends to get the attributions of emails wrong when it is asked in advance to 
trim for a reply. I do know that I should check, and not doing so is plain 
carelessness.  

For the record, it was *Alan* whose indentations my (and many other) email 
clients *correctly* did not preserve.  It has been instructed to use plain 
text.  (Another instruction it doesn't always obey, but therein hangs another 
story.)

Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be sending 
from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address  
<[email-masked]> still doesn't work, and you are getting list emails.  
If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish the 
address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!

Lisi

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:38:49 +0100

> Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be sending 

I am not uncontactable.

> <[email-masked]> still doesn't work, and you are getting list emails.

The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
mail system.

As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
what would you think? Working from those thoughts: suppose you never
received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?

> address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!

The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 19:07:46 +0100

> because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my

No, the emails I tried to send off-list got rejection messages, not helpful 
replies.
> what would you think? 

I would assume that you had had the email and ignored it.

> Working from those thoughts: suppose you never 

If you were continuing to reply to the list I would assume that I was being 
ignored for some reason.  If you were not posting to the list I would worry 
fruitlessly about you and miss your contribution.
>
> > If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish
> > the address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!
>

Yes, I am sorry.  I did look.  But I am partially sighted, headers are 
difficult, I was in a hurry and I knew that you had been having a problem 
with ?Demon? and that address that you were wondering how to resolve.

I will copy and paste your headers into a word processor so that I can edit 
them into legibility and go from there.

Lisi

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 22:39:52 +0100

> No, the emails I tried to send off-list got rejection messages, not helpful 

What if Royal Mail told you they were unable to deliver a letter you had
put into one of their nice red pillar boxes? Wouldn't that be useful
information you could take action on? If you sent a letter to 123 M7 9QD
in the UK and it wasn't returned you would surely assume Royal Mail had
delivered it? I'd dispute that bounce messages are not useful. Problems
very often arise when mail has been delivered but there is no feedback.

> I would assume that you had had the email and ignored it.

Why should *I* have the mail? If the receiving system doesn't pass it on
to me I'll never see it. The best you can say is that the receiving
system accepted the mail via SMTP. What happens after that has nothing
to do with SMTP. Another system accepts the mail from the SMTP
transaction and deals with it. Knowledge of what happens there could be
non-existent unless the accepting system chooses to tell you.

The mail is accepted. What the receving system does with it is up to it.
It could put the mail through a spam detection system which deletes the
mail or not let a user download it without paying. None of this process
is under the control of the recipient; she gets what the receiving
system decides she gets. The sending system also has no say in the
matter

Think of all the mails which come through your letter-box; Royal Mail
(SMTP) has done its job. The sender has had the letter delivered; they
get no bounce message so think the recipient has receved it. But,
unbeknownst to you, or Royal Mail, someone in the house filters out some
of the mail. You may never know this happens.

Acceptance of mail by the mail system does not imply or guarantee the
recipient receives a mail. It depends on what happens after the
acceptance (which is  not controlled by the recipient or the sending
system).

> fruitlessly about you and miss your contribution.

My mail to the list and the mail entering my inbox are completely
independent. Think about it; there is no connection between the two
processes. However, even though the assumption is unsustainable, I
understand what you are saying. It is natural to think that sending
something means it gets there. After all, in 9,999 cases out of 10,000
it does.

> with ?Demon? and that address that you were wondering how to resolve.

Demon have decided that mail provision has been free all these years.
"Free" means it is not subject to contact and consequently can be moved
elsewhere and made accessible for a fee. I am too tightfisted to pay for
"elsewhere".

> them into legibility and go from there.

You'll get there. Say if you don't.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:05:47 +0100

> You are probably asking the wrong question.

Oh, no, Brian.  He is asking the right question by definition.  Alan is asking 
it, it is therefore right.

We are providing the wrong answers.  And to make matters worse we are doing so 
in Old English words that poor Alan does not know, so we must have invented 
them.

My Tutor came from Bedford College (previous job).  She would have got on well 
with Alan.

Lisi

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:41:34 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisi Reisz" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 2:05:47 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

Oh, no, Brian.  He is asking the right question by definition.  Alan is asking 
it, it is therefore right.
       Lisi, is this kind of post helpful?  Is that a question that you even ask
       yourself?  For some reason you've taken a dislike to me, at a distance of
       5000 miles.  That's OK, no skin off my nose.  But you are starting to irritate
       other members of this E-list.  So please: make sure from now on that your
       posts contain information, and not just name-calling.  We'd all appreciate it.

TIA,

Alan

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:55:37 +0100

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 16:34:31 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I
> > apologize for Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home
> > mutt so nicely does.
> >
> > Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a
> > reply according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows
> > better from conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not
> > conform, does not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your
> > posting agent.
>
>        I just put in the '>'s in the four lines above by hand.  I hope you
> are not going to ask me to continue to do so!  Especially since I've
> already explained that Zimbra(which is set up to deal with E-mail) is such
> a cruddy mess.

It would be courteous.  It makes an enormous difference.

 ...
>
> > But maybe someone
> > can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine
> > that there is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to
> > know about Windows 10 to behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
>
>          I have just checked and when I sent this it was indented eight
> spaces or so. As is this present paragraph.  Do you(plural) see that it is
> indented?  or does your(plural) mail reader simply delete the spaces?  I
> ask, because I don't like to be chewed out when I'm doing my (present)
> level best to conform with expectations.  Of course, it could be that
> Zimbra deletes the preliminary spaces before sending the mail out.  I could
> tell you tales about how Gmail mucks with what one has written before it
> sends the mail.
>
>
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for
> it, rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from
> whatever non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything
> resembling boot sector code.
>          Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run
> os-prober. I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote;
> trust me that it was unenlightening garbage.
>
> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a
> > network installation started via a Stretch installer.
>
>          Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get
> on line.
>
> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one
> of the things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

Why not try re-downloading your install media and starting again?  I take it 
you did check the integrity of your install media?  And did you edit your 
BIOS before starting?  Rhetorical question.  I know that you don't believe in 
answering questions or actually solving problems.  You have an unsatisfactory 
kludge and prefer to leave it so and just keep moaning.  Or I would ask 
EXACTLY what you have done and EXACTLY which model you have installed on.

Lots of people have got round the MS and Intel blocks and got Win10 and Jessie 
dual booting.  But is it a Skylake CPU?  Because that would add an added 
complication with the Jessie installer.

Either try to solve your problem or live with it and stop moaning.  
(Wiktionary suggests that in that meaning that is acceptable on both sides of 
the Atlantic).

Incidentally, I have just checked in my OED.  Printed version,  3rd Edition, 
published 1944, reprinted 1978.  Whinge has been in use in its present 
meaning since 1513 (they can cite a use in 1513), though it was only used 
that long ago in the north and in Scotland.  Whinger, the noun, cans only be 
cited in 1540.

But:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=etymology+and+usage+of+whinge&oq=etymology+and+usage+of+whinge&aqs=chrome..69i57.9456j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Note the first hit.  Merriam Webster says that it has been in use since the 
12th Century.  

It hasn't been introduced here, it has died out there.  It has been in 
continuous use since the 16th Century or earlier.

But I don't suppose you listened to what people in Egham were saying in 1967 
any more than you listen to us now.

Lisi

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:03:36 +0100

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 02:44:14 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie,
> then came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for
> those who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.

I might have come to an invalid conclusion from reading the changelog
snippet quoted earlier and then went to lay far too much emphasis on
Jessie d-i preceding Windows 10. What is fixed is not whether an entry
for Windows 10 is displayed but the wording of the entry in the GRUB
menu.

Apologies for anything misleading.
 
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling

Yes it does appear curious, especially as the implication in the
changelog (and a few reports I've seen elsewhere) is that a Windows 10
install can be discovered by os-prober but provides "Windows Recovery
Partition" as GRUB's menu entry.

> 10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all
> my computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming
> that troubled you might be avoided in such manner.

os-prober from stretch/unstable should install on Jessie with 'dpkg -i'
but I am much less confident it would fix a missing entry, even though
it should do no harm to try.

Another possibilty is

  https://wiki.debian.org/DualBoot/Windows10

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:40:11 +0100

> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.

[...Snippety-snip...]

> systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the machine self-test.

You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.

If you had clue and had provided a decent, useful response you would
then have been directed to read /usr/lib/os-probes/mounted/20microsoft.
The light would then have dawned (perhaps). All the time you would be
learning and helping yourself. But no - whinging wins out. Far easier
for you to that than think for yourself.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:

  * Add support for Windows 10 (otherwise reported as Windows Recovery
    Environment). Thanks, Philipp Wolfer! (Closes: #801278).

 -- Cyril Brulebois <[email-masked]>  Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:26:16 +0200

With this information your every desire can be realised. Your problem
now has a proper solution. Surely what you can do to have a dual boot
doesn't need spelling out?

> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Alan McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 13:01:58 -0400 (EDT)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:40:11 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

         Excellent.

You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.
         Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:
         getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
         shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
         turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
         a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
         transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
         a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
         for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.
         I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
         didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.
         Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
         program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
         installer is broken.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:
         Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
         know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
         for stretch may be an improvement.

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
         <LOL>  I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
         more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
         exists<g>.

A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the English
for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't recall
ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Alan

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:30:20 +0100

>          Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:

I imagine your question is rhetorical, so it has no real edge to it and
does not require me to give an impression of an affronted user. The
repetition is unnecessary as it simply confirms you went into "sod this
for a game of soldiers" mode and started digging a deeper hole for
yourself.

>          didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.

Even saying that would have given us a hook to hang a response on. Not
giving a precis alongside your other output was a bad move because it
altered the focus. Verbatim output is always best but a summary is
better than nothing.

   Verbatim output       =10/10
   Verbatim output+whine =7/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Summary               =6/10 (There is some value in it)
   Summary+whine         =3/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Whine only            =0/10

>          program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the

Broken? Mmm. Windows 10 was released on 29th July 2015. The Jessie
installer was released on 25th April 2015; there are indeed updates to
it but only for important features like security.

"Ah", you will say, what about d-i's DivineTheFuture package? Well, it
failed abysmally, although some Debian developers made a fortune from
betting on the Grand National using its predictions. (Warning: Fantasy
module switched on full).

>          for stretch may be an improvement.

You've completely missed the point. Try saying to yourself

  I wish my machine had a file like unstable's or testing's

and then figure out how it could have such a file. (The os-prober output
would tell you whether what you did worked). This is the central section
in this mail. If you reply to anything you should reply to this.

>          more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure

It doesn't seem possible. Every time I make an attempt I hear a melody
and a voice singing "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer....."

> ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:02:01 +0100

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > College back in 1967-68.
>

I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a women's 
college) in 1967 ....  (There were - just.)

Lisi

---

From: David Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:12:20 -0500

> college) in 1967 ....  (There were - just.)

I don't think either of the constituents of RubberNeck disallowed
men on the *staff*. (I also didn't realise they dropped the Neck out
of their name, although Royal Holloway and Bedford New College remains
their legal name.)

Cheers,
David.

---

From: Lisi Reisz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:06:28 +0100

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:01:58 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further
> > chastisement or smarm. Please help me to keep it!

What a pity you didn't!  What happened to your self control??

Lisi

---

From: "Neal P. Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 19:03:00 -0400

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:38:56 +0100

> answered.  Are all attempts to answer it being spam-checked out of 

[I trust this will appear in the desired thread; I changed the subject back....]

A few things I can think of (which generally reflect your suggestions):
  - username changed in settings or at gmail
  - password changed in settings or at gmail
  - port changed in settings or at gmail (between encrypted and non-encrypted, for example)
  - DNS problems
  - SSL versus startTLS
  - change between IMAP and POP3
  - firewall blockage (but not *too* likely, since other servers can be accessed)
  - encryption schemes that are no longer valid (like SSL2 or SSL3 but, again, not *too* likely*)

N

P.S. Related to another thread (about email programs), another shortcoming of Claws Mail is that there's no way to see/edit *all* a reply's headers; otherwise, I would've adjusted this message's Message-id header to match that of the O.P.'s message and make this reply appear in the right place in the thread. I don't have the original message to reply to.

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 20:18:28 +0100

>           <LOL>  Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

You are both on the same page, then. Keep together and ward off the
people who ask questions or request information. It will give you a
cosier world.
 
>           conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for

Was anyone at all impolite?

>           that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope

You are quite correct - the procedure is cumbersome. In fact, it is
naff. But you have it as a "solution" and are happy with it and do not
want to alter it. Who are we to argue and try to seek a technical
solution?

>           which OS they wish to boot.

We are working on it. Debian Central has realised that there are holes
in its installation for some users with names beginning with "Alan". A
fix will be sent out when we have dealt with Abarrane.

Meanwhile, follow the advice on -user. You seem to have ignored most of
it.
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even suggestions.

Follow-on questions go in different threads. It keeps things tidy and
manageable. Please start a new one on this topic.

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:44:11 +0100

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who
> provided useful help?
> 

The "solution" is very suboptimal in the context of Debian and GRUB and
does not help anyone having the same problem, particularily if a bug is
involved.

(I do not know where you get the 12 hours from. bendel.debian.org sent
the mail to me at 15:14:19 +0000 (UTC). My reply arrived at bendel by
18:32:58 +0000 (UTC) on the same day. I also hadn't appreciated that
this list had a time limit set on replies sent to it).

---

From: Dutch Ingraham <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:11:25 -0500

>         and/or comments.  That will save both you and me time and spare us both

Given your responses to someone who was, in any event, trying to help, cross me
off your list as well.  *PLONK*