Subject: Installing a MINIMAL Mate Desktop How?

From: Richard Owlett <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 06:47:23 -0500

When Squeeze was the latest I was able to install without any 
desktop.
I would then do
    apt-get install gnome-session gdm3 gedit gnome-terminal gparted
The result was a nice uncluttered desktop to which I could add 
what *I* needed rather than what the proverbial "everybody" 
should have ;)

According to http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download#debian I 
should be able to do
    apt-get install mate-desktop-environment-core

That is not enough, it leaves me with only a command line.
I have the full Mate desktop on one machine. Using Synaptic on 
that machine and using apt-get install **** on the other I was 
able too identify some missing pieces.

"apt-get install mate-desktop-environment-core" does not install 
marco, xorg, xterm, nor lightdm. My brute force diagnostic 
procedure was to install each of them in the order listed with a 
reboot in between to see if everything worked. It did not. After 
installing each of the 1st three I was left at the command line. 
After installing lightdm I was presented with a blank screen.

As I have minimal bandwidth available I am installing from 
purchased DVD's - currently version 8.0.0 . After the point 
release later this month I will obtain the latest.

Has anyone successfully done such a minimal install as I am 
attempting?
TIA

---

From: Curt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 16:46:15 +0000 (UTC)

> After installing lightdm I was presented with a blank screen.

Well installing xorg without a display manager (lightdm in your case)
would take you to the console, from where you'd have to issue a "startx"
to get into the graphical environment I do believe. Rebooting each time
seems like a waste of time, unless you can explain what magical spell
that is supposed to cast upon the whole affair.

After installing lightdm you get a blank screen, so you're making
progress (perhaps a graphic card/driver issue lurking in there
somewhere).

-- 
“Whatever is rejected from the self, appears in the world as an event.” 
C.G. Jung

---

From: Richard Owlett <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:57:08 -0500

> that is supposed to cast upon the whole affair.

Only as a reproducible test to see if I had installed all the 
right pieces ;)

> progress (perhaps a graphic card/driver issue lurking in there

I was reporting sucess as you were writing.
Futher experiments await purchasing DVD's of the upcoming point 
release.

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 15:14:29 +0100

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 06:47:23 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> When Squeeze was the latest I was able to install without any desktop.
> I would then do
> The result was a nice uncluttered desktop to which I could add what *I*
> needed rather than what the proverbial "everybody" should have ;)

gnome-session pulls in xserver-org-video-all and installs it on the
*same* machine. Graphical programs like gnome-terminal and gedit run on
the *same* machine as the X server runs on and will display an output
there. This is a very common situation but it does not have to be like
that.

An X server runs and produces an output on the machine you are sitting
in front of. Programs like gedit could be on a *different* machine. This
is just as valid a setup as the "common" one. It implies that such
things as, for example, window manager packages do not depend on an X
server being installed.

> According to http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download#debian I should be able
> to do

You got what was promised - a minimal mate install. You need an X server
on that machine or another one if you want other than the command line.

> I have the full Mate desktop on one machine. Using Synaptic on that machine
> and using apt-get install **** on the other I was able too identify some
> missing pieces.
> 
> "apt-get install mate-desktop-environment-core" does not install marco,
> xorg, xterm, nor lightdm. My brute force diagnostic procedure was to install
> each of them in the order listed with a reboot in between to see if
> everything worked. It did not. After installing each of the 1st three I was
> left at the command line. After installing lightdm I was presented with a
> blank screen.

mate-desktop-environment-core depends on marco. There is something
seriously wrong if it was not installed.

xorg isn't required to be on the same machine as mate; that is why it
was not installed. mate-terminal does the same job as xterm. The mate
maintainers might have decided not have a DM as a depended on or
recommended package.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Richard Owlett <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 10:04:06 -0500

> things as, for example, window manager packages do not depend on an X

I think I follow the point you are trying to make.
Just to be clear, everything *I* do is on a standalone machine [a 
laptop].

> on that machine or another one if you want other than the command line.

Whether or not it qualifies as an "install" or not is a matter of 
definition/perspective. A few years ago I thinking about a 
possible Debian Pure Blend aimed at the bandwidth challenged - at 
the time I was on dialup. Someone suggested  "Desert Island 
Swirl" as a working title. That would fit my perspective on how 
an installer should interact with a user. The user could be 
described as one person, with one computer and one stack of DVD's.

> seriously wrong if it was not installed.

Huumm I see another test install in my future as it is listed as 
such in the packages file for the DVD I installed from.

> maintainers might have decided not have a DM as a depended on or

While waiting for response(s) to my my post I installed marco, 
xorg, xterm, mate-terminal, mate-panel, mate-session-manager and 
lightdm.

I now have a workable, if ugly *MINIMAL* install. !!!! ;)
Now to find some decorative elements and chose the applications I 
want.

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:52:52 +0100

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 10:04:06 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> While waiting for response(s) to my my post I installed marco, xorg, xterm,
> mate-terminal, mate-panel, mate-session-manager and lightdm.
> 
> Now to find some decorative elements and chose the applications I want.

The meaning of "minimal" is very difficult to define as it very much
depends on the purpose of the install, what functionality is required,
how it is to be used now and in the future and who it is to be used by.

If I were doing what you are doing I wouldn't install xorg because it
would take some 213 MB of space on this machine without the recommended
packages. Instead (without recommended packages) I'd have xserver-org,
xserver-org-input-evdev and xserver-xorg-video-nouveau for 15 MB of disk
space. I doubt much (if anything) is lost by taking that route to X.

Adding xterm to my basic X install is 3 MB of space extra. mate-terminal
is 105 MB, so it is no contest if space taken is a major criterion. You
could see less ugliness in mate-terminal so there is little point in
arguing about what is minimal.

lightdm looks nice and only adds an extra 2 MB. nodm adds hardly
anything. Is a fancy DM necessary?

I'd use mc instead of marco but wouldn't give it to a user who expects
clickety-click things and automounting.

Do you see what I am getting at? It could be said that minimal (like
beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Richard Owlett <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:17:57 -0500

> beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.

I haven't tried your suggestions yet - even retired there are 
only so many hours.
My definition of "minimal" focuses more on what is seen by user 
rather than optimizing for minimum footprint [RAM or disk]. I've 
some sketchy ideas for the later but other projects have priority.

My current preseed.cfg contains:

### Package selection
tasksel tasksel/first multiselect standard
# was tasksel tasksel/first multiselect standard, laptop

# Individual additional packages to install
d-i pkgsel/include string mate-desktop-environment-core xorg 
xterm lightdm pluma synaptic gparted

This gives me a framework to install just the programs I'll 
actually use rather than what some committee thinks "everybody" 
wants ;/

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 15:15:22 +0100

On Mon 19 Sep 2016 at 08:17:57 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> I haven't tried your suggestions yet - even retired there are only so many
> hours.
> My definition of "minimal" focuses more on what is seen by user rather than
> optimizing for minimum footprint [RAM or disk]. I've some sketchy ideas for
> the later but other projects have priority.

Indeed, that is also another way of looking at "minimal" and no less
valid than another way.

> d-i pkgsel/include string mate-desktop-environment-core xorg xterm lightdm
> pluma synaptic gparted

Looks good. Thinking on: my suggestion for a minimal X is probably one
you could ignore. xorg is a better option if this preseed.cfg is to be
used on a variety of machines.

> This gives me a framework to install just the programs I'll actually use
> rather than what some committee thinks "everybody" wants ;/

Getting your desired programs via a late_command is something to look
at.

-- 
Brian.

---

From: Richard Owlett <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:30:10 -0500

On 9/11/2016 10:04 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> [snip]

Something is definitely *FLAKY* at least.
I just did another test install on another partition.
This time I only had to install xorg, xterm, and lightdm after 
installing mate-desktop-environment-core.
This time it even has the same visual appearance as the full Mate 
install on the same machine.

As Debian 8.6 is due soon, I'll wait until then and copy the 
DVD's to a flash drive and do an install from them. In the 
meantime I'll create an appropriate preseed.cfg to aid repeatably 
to my trials.

---

From: mo <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:24:27 +0200

Hi Richard

I for one always make a minimal install, which means i only install the 
base. (You can select that in tasksel during the installation)

 From there on i build the system so to speak myself. Installing xorg 
and the needed video driver, the core package for my DE of choice (which 
currently is gnome) and then i install my display manager of choice (i 
use gdm atm).
After that you either start gdm yourself by doing:
# systemctl enable gdm && systemctl start gdm
or you simply do a reboot... then you should be presented with your 
display manager of choice and you can login to your DE.

About your problem with having to less applications installed with the 
core mate package:
Have a look at the mate-desktop-environment meta package:
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/mate-desktop-environment
There you can see which applications get pulled in, you can select them 
yourself and then you can install the mate-desktop-environment-core 
package and add the software you need.

I hope this helps you

Best regards

mo

Am 11.09.2016 um 13:47 schrieb Richard Owlett:
> According to http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download#debian I should be
> able to do
> I have the full Mate desktop on one machine. Using Synaptic on that
> machine and using apt-get install **** on the other I was able too
> identify some missing pieces.
>
> xorg, xterm, nor lightdm. My brute force diagnostic procedure was to
> install each of them in the order listed with a reboot in between to see
> if everything worked. It did not. After installing each of the 1st three
> I was left at the command line. After installing lightdm I was presented
> with a blank screen.
>
> As I have minimal bandwidth available I am installing from purchased
> DVD's - currently version 8.0.0 . After the point release later this
> month I will obtain the latest.
>
> Has anyone successfully done such a minimal install as I am attempting?
> TIA
>
>